(04-03-2010, 02:36 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]Evreii tin ziua de Sambata ca ziua de Sabat.
Asa si?
(04-03-2010, 02:36 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]Poate ca exista o diferenta in atitudinea lor fata de Dumnezeu dar erau aceeasi evrei, fii ai lui Israel.
"Pui de năpîrci, cine v-a învăţat să fugiţi de mânia viitoare? Faceţi dar roade vrednice de pocăinţa voastră, şi nu vă apucaţi să ziceţi în voi înşivă: «
Avem pe Avraam ca tată!» Căci vă spun că Dumnezeu din pietrele acestea poate să ridice fii lui Avraam" (Luca 3:7-8)
Nu conteaza ca sunt fii lui Avraam/Israel (Iacov), ei trebuie sa dovedeasca cu faptele lor acest
drept. Faptul ca sunt fii lui Israel nu ii va avantaja in nici-un fel la Judecata.
(04-03-2010, 02:36 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]Ce dovada ai ca tot ceea ce este in exteriorul Bibliei este minciuna?
Vezi cum exagerezi? Eu ti-am spus ca nu e 100% sigur ca , ce este scris in acele dictionare este adevarat, si tu vii cu niste concluzii imaginare.
(04-03-2010, 02:36 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]Acum spune si tu dovezile tale pentru faptul ca Duminica este ziua a saptea a saptamanii biblice?
Ce, ti s-a terminat munitia?
Uita-te la posturile mele de mai sus si arata-mi unde am specificat ca a saptea zi a saptamanii d.p.d.v. al Bibliei este Duminica?
(04-03-2010, 03:27 PM)Necro Wrote: [ -> ]Asa si?
Isus era evreu, asa ca El a tinut ca evreii, Sambata ta Sabat.
(04-03-2010, 03:27 PM)Necro Wrote: [ -> ]"Pui de năpîrci, cine v-a învăţat să fugiţi de mânia viitoare? Faceţi dar roade vrednice de pocăinţa voastră, şi nu vă apucaţi să ziceţi în voi înşivă: «Avem pe Avraam ca tată!» Căci vă spun că Dumnezeu din pietrele acestea poate să ridice fii lui Avraam" (Luca 3:7-8)
Nu conteaza ca sunt fii lui Avraam/Israel (Iacov), ei trebuie sa dovedeasca cu faptele lor acest drept. Faptul ca sunt fii lui Israel nu ii va avantaja in nici-un fel la Judecata.
Tu ai facut o diferenta intre evrei. Eu am spus caci ca natiune (fii ai lui Israel) si legi, erau aceeasi.
(04-03-2010, 03:27 PM)Necro Wrote: [ -> ]Vezi cum exagerezi? Eu ti-am spus ca nu e 100% sigur ca , ce este scris in acele dictionare este adevarat, si tu vii cu niste concluzii imaginare.
Si cum stii ca e minciuna? Inca ceva ... daca Dumnezeu vrea sa tinem Sabatul .. crezi ca ar permite ca el sa fie pierdut? Nu are El grija de toate? Crezi ca nu poate sa ne pastreze Sabatul in ziua lui originala?
(04-03-2010, 03:27 PM)Necro Wrote: [ -> ]Ce, ti s-a terminat munitia? [/quote[
Nu, dar tu nu ai prezentat nici un argument de al tau. Deci ce dovezi prezinti pentru faptul ca Sabatul nu este Sambata?
[quote='Necro' pid='19507' dateline='1270297662']Uita-te la posturile mele de mai sus si arata-mi unde am specificat ca a saptea zi a saptamanii d.p.d.v. al Bibliei este Duminica?
Am dedus. Nu crezi ca e Sambata, si nu ai negat cand ufy (sau altuls .. nu mai tin minte) a zis ca Duminica este a saptea, asa cam mam gandit ca esti de acord.
(04-03-2010, 05:03 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]Isus era evreu, asa ca El a tinut ca evreii, Sambata ta Sabat.
E mentionat undeva in Biblie?
(04-03-2010, 05:03 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]Eu am spus caci ca natiune (fii ai lui Israel) si legi, erau aceeasi.
Nu inteleg. :|
(04-03-2010, 05:03 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]Si cum stii ca e minciuna? Inca ceva ... daca Dumnezeu vrea sa tinem Sabatul .. crezi ca ar permite ca el sa fie pierdut? Nu are El grija de toate?
Cercetand
.
(04-03-2010, 05:03 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]Crezi ca nu poate sa ne pastreze Sabatul in ziua lui originala?
Nu imi mai adauga cuvinte pe care nu le-am spus. Cand am spus ca Dumnezeu e incapabil sa faca ceva? Ce ciudat ... eu nu imi amintesc. Nu te mai lega de niste fraze pe care stii bine ca le cred; nu ii vad rostul. Si asta nu are legatura cu (repet) dovedirea celei de-a saptea zi a saptamanii Biblice.
(04-03-2010, 05:03 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]Nu, dar tu nu ai prezentat nici un argument de al tau. Deci ce dovezi prezinti pentru faptul ca Sabatul nu este Sambata?
There are 8 references in the Christian Scriptures to the "first day of the week", as Sunday was referred to in those days.
- Five of them refer to events during Resurrection Morning -- the day when the tomb where Jesus was laid was found to be empty. The other three are:
- John 20:19 describes events on what we would call Sunday evening. The disciples were gathered together. Some have speculated that this might have been the first Sunday worship service. Others suggest that the text seems to imply that they were gathered together for their own protection, out of fear of attack by "the Jews."
- Acts 20:7: Paul is described as preaching on a Sunday evening. It was evening, because the passage refers to lamps being lit. Some Christians promote this text as demonstrating that Paul held a religious service on a Sunday. Others suggest that he gave the teaching on what he would call Sunday evening but we would call Saturday evening; the first day of the week started at sundown on Saturday in 1st century CE Palestine. If Paul considered Sunday to be the Sabbath then he would not have set out on foot to Assos on Sunday morning.
- 1 Corinthians 16:2: Paul instructs the Christians at Corinth that each of them is to lay aside some money every Sunday that would later be collected for the Christians at Jerusalem. Some interpreters believe that this might refer to a collection of money at a Sunday religious service. Others suggest that the text implies that the money was to be laid aside by each believer separately and privately, and to be saved up by each person independently.
(04-03-2010, 06:30 PM)Necro Wrote: [ -> ] (04-03-2010, 05:03 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]Isus era evreu, asa ca El a tinut ca evreii, Sambata ta Sabat.
E mentionat undeva in Biblie?
Isus este fiul lui Israel, pentru ca este fiul lui Iuda, fiul lui David. Fii lui Israel sunt evreii. Deci este scris ca Isus era evreu. Isus a tinut toate poruncile Tatalui, incluzand Sabatul. Intreaba pe evrei ce zi este Sabatul si o sa iti zica ca este Sambata. Acum de ce are minti evreii?
(04-03-2010, 06:30 PM)Necro Wrote: [ -> ]Nu inteleg. :|
Lasa, ca nu conteaza.
(04-03-2010, 06:30 PM)Necro Wrote: [ -> ]Cercetand
Ai cercetat tu si ai ajuns la concluzia ca Sambata nu este Sabatul?
(04-03-2010, 06:30 PM)Necro Wrote: [ -> ]Nu imi mai adauga cuvinte pe care nu le-am spus. Cand am spus ca Dumnezeu e incapabil sa faca ceva? Ce ciudat ... eu nu imi amintesc. Nu te mai lega de niste fraze pe care stii bine ca le cred; nu ii vad rostul. Si asta nu are legatura cu (repet) dovedirea celei de-a saptea zi a saptamanii Biblice.
Nu tiam adaugat cuvinte. Este o intrebare facuta de mine.
(04-03-2010, 06:30 PM)Necro Wrote: [ -> ]There are 8 references in the Christian Scriptures to the "first day of the week", as Sunday was referred to in those days.
- Five of them refer to events during Resurrection Morning -- the day when the tomb where Jesus was laid was found to be empty. The other three are:
- John 20:19 describes events on what we would call Sunday evening. The disciples were gathered together. Some have speculated that this might have been the first Sunday worship service. Others suggest that the text seems to imply that they were gathered together for their own protection, out of fear of attack by "the Jews."
- Acts 20:7: Paul is described as preaching on a Sunday evening. It was evening, because the passage refers to lamps being lit. Some Christians promote this text as demonstrating that Paul held a religious service on a Sunday. Others suggest that he gave the teaching on what he would call Sunday evening but we would call Saturday evening; the first day of the week started at sundown on Saturday in 1st century CE Palestine. If Paul considered Sunday to be the Sabbath then he would not have set out on foot to Assos on Sunday morning.
- 1 Corinthians 16:2: Paul instructs the Christians at Corinth that each of them is to lay aside some money every Sunday that would later be collected for the Christians at Jerusalem. Some interpreters believe that this might refer to a collection of money at a Sunday religious service. Others suggest that the text implies that the money was to be laid aside by each believer separately and privately, and to be saved up by each person independently.
Oricum, aceste versete nu dovedesc ca ziua a fost schimbata de Sabat a fost schimbata din ziua a saptea in ziua intai, dar vobind de schimbare, o sati dau ceva de citit (l-am scris eu in engleza in alta parte dar sunt prea obosit ca sa traduc, si nici n-am timp; plus, tu stii engleza)
Cristian Wrote:Another important thing. I believe we must understand what the covenant is. Let's read the Scriptures: Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." ... And He [God] wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments. ~Exodus 34:27-28. So the words of the covenant are the Ten Commandments. Good. As Richard said (if I'm not mistaken) in a previous post, there was nothing wrong with the covenant, but what was wrong is that one of the parties broke the covenant, that is: the Jews.
Am sa adaug si ce a spus Richard, doar ca sa fim pe aceeasi pagina.
Richard Wrote:Prod 1 I'm glad you brought up these vs. Let's take a close look at them to find out just what they are saying. Let me post the KJV because that's what I'm used to.
Jer.31:31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
It says that the Lord is going to make a new covenant with the house of Israel. Why? Because they broke the old covenant. I think the misunderstanding comes in what is meant by the covenant. One is the wording of the covenant or the Ten Commandments. It is not talking about this, because we can readily see that God will write His law on our mind and in our hearts. Well, what is He talking about then? A covenant can also be an agreement between two parties. It says in v. 31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
When it says a new covenant, it means the agreement with the house of Israel. Notice
Heb.9:6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them,he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
So what this is saying is that the covenant made with the house of Israel was faulty, not because there is anything wrong with the wording of the covenant, but there was fault with them. So, God in His infinite wisdom made the new covenant between not all the house of Israel, but one who was representative of the house of Israel and that would be Jesus Christ. He did not break the covenant, He fullfilled (kept) it.
Si acum continui eu.
Cristian Wrote:So there was nothing wrong with the Ten Commandments. So let us see a verse in Galatians, but first, let's read Hebrews: In the case of a covenant, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a covenant is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. ~Hebrews 9:16-17 Now let's see Galatians: Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. ~Galatians 3:15 So a covenant has been 'duly established' after a certain someone dies, and after that the covenant cannot be changed. The covenant can be changed only as long as that person lives, and not after his death. The words of the covenant are the Ten Commandments. Jesus died without making any change in them. After the person dies, there can be no change in the covenant. Jesus established His covenant with us by His death, and it cannot be changed anymore. My question is: when did the Sabbath day change? Of course, not in a single moment, but over the centuries. It was a slow process; but the fact remains: it was changed after the covenant has been established. A covenant (also called 'will') can only be changed by the person who made the will (i.e.: covenant) and only by that person and only as long as that person didn't die (that is, before that persons death). This is according to the Scriptures. Only Jesus can change it and only as long as it was before the crucifixion (His death). Show me one passage where it Jesus says that the Sabbath has been changed from the seventh day to the first day and that is, while He was walking with us on earth (because a covenant cannot be modified after one's death). Any change of the covenant after the person's death is impossible. Any change in the Ten Commandments (the covenant) after Jesus' death is impossible, because the Bible says so. The Sabbath was changed after Jesus' death because we have not a single hint from Jesus that it was changed. On the contrary! He said that we should pray so our flight would no be on the Sabbath (Matthew 24:20), so He told us that the Sabbath would continue even after His death! This logically means that He made no change in the covenant (i.e.: Ten Commandments) before His death and neither after (but even if He did after, that would be impossible without breaking His word, since a covenant after the person's death cannot be changed) and remember that after one's death the covenant is unchangeable. It is true that Jesus resurrected, but it is also true that He established the covenant with His death.
So let's review. There can be no change in the covenant after the person (that made the covenant) dies. The Covenant is the Ten Commandments. Jesus died, thus establishing the Ten Commandments. A change can be made in the covenant only as long as the person lives (that is, before his death). Jesus didn't change the Sabbath as long as He lived (before His crucifixion). He died establishing the Ten Commandments (i.e.: covenant). After His death, over a slow process, the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath day from the seventh day of the week to the first day of the week. As you see, this change is invalid, since a covenant cannot be changed after one's death. Simple isn't it?
Daca vrei sa faci vreun comentariu, fa-l asupra ceea ce am scris eu.
Deci un schimb in ziua Sabatului dupa moarte lui Mesia nu ar fi valabil. Asa ca schimbul sabatului ar putea fi facut numai de Isus inaintea mortii Sale. Dar El nu a facut asa ceva.
(04-03-2010, 07:10 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]Isus este fiul lui Israel, pentru ca este fiul lui Iuda, fiul lui David. Fii lui Israel sunt evreii. Deci este scris ca Isus era evreu. Isus a tinut toate poruncile Tatalui, incluzand Sabatul. Intreaba pe evrei ce zi este Sabatul si o sa iti zica ca este Sambata. Acum de ce are minti evreii?
Nu la asta m-am referit. Am spus daca este mentionat in Biblie faptul ca Isus tinea sambata ca Sabat.
(04-03-2010, 07:10 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]Ai cercetat tu si ai ajuns la concluzia ca Sambata nu este Sabatul?
Nu. Ti-am dat tie sansa sa ma luminezi.
(04-03-2010, 07:10 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]Cristian Wrote:Another important thing. I believe we must understand what the covenant is. Let's read the Scriptures: Then the LORD said to Moses, "Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." ... And He [God] wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments. ~Exodus 34:27-28. So the words of the covenant are the Ten Commandments. Good. As Richard said (if I'm not mistaken) in a previous post, there was nothing wrong with the covenant, but what was wrong is that one of the parties broke the covenant, that is: the Jews.
Am sa adaug si ce a spus Richard, doar ca sa fim pe aceeasi pagina.
Richard Wrote:Prod 1 I'm glad you brought up these vs. Let's take a close look at them to find out just what they are saying. Let me post the KJV because that's what I'm used to.
Jer.31:31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
It says that the Lord is going to make a new covenant with the house of Israel. Why? Because they broke the old covenant. I think the misunderstanding comes in what is meant by the covenant. One is the wording of the covenant or the Ten Commandments. It is not talking about this, because we can readily see that God will write His law on our mind and in our hearts. Well, what is He talking about then? A covenant can also be an agreement between two parties. It says in v. 31Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
When it says a new covenant, it means the agreement with the house of Israel. Notice
Heb.9:6But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
7For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
8For finding fault with them,he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
So what this is saying is that the covenant made with the house of Israel was faulty, not because there is anything wrong with the wording of the covenant, but there was fault with them. So, God in His infinite wisdom made the new covenant between not all the house of Israel, but one who was representative of the house of Israel and that would be Jesus Christ. He did not break the covenant, He fullfilled (kept) it.
Si acum continui eu.
Cristian Wrote:So there was nothing wrong with the Ten Commandments. So let us see a verse in Galatians, but first, let's read Hebrews: In the case of a covenant, it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, because a covenant is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. ~Hebrews 9:16-17 Now let's see Galatians: Brothers, let me take an example from everyday life. Just as no one can set aside or add to a human covenant that has been duly established, so it is in this case. ~Galatians 3:15 So a covenant has been 'duly established' after a certain someone dies, and after that the covenant cannot be changed. The covenant can be changed only as long as that person lives, and not after his death. The words of the covenant are the Ten Commandments. Jesus died without making any change in them. After the person dies, there can be no change in the covenant. Jesus established His covenant with us by His death, and it cannot be changed anymore. My question is: when did the Sabbath day change? Of course, not in a single moment, but over the centuries. It was a slow process; but the fact remains: it was changed after the covenant has been established. A covenant (also called 'will') can only be changed by the person who made the will (i.e.: covenant) and only by that person and only as long as that person didn't die (that is, before that persons death). This is according to the Scriptures. Only Jesus can change it and only as long as it was before the crucifixion (His death). Show me one passage where it Jesus says that the Sabbath has been changed from the seventh day to the first day and that is, while He was walking with us on earth (because a covenant cannot be modified after one's death). Any change of the covenant after the person's death is impossible. Any change in the Ten Commandments (the covenant) after Jesus' death is impossible, because the Bible says so. The Sabbath was changed after Jesus' death because we have not a single hint from Jesus that it was changed. On the contrary! He said that we should pray so our flight would no be on the Sabbath (Matthew 24:20), so He told us that the Sabbath would continue even after His death! This logically means that He made no change in the covenant (i.e.: Ten Commandments) before His death and neither after (but even if He did after, that would be impossible without breaking His word, since a covenant after the person's death cannot be changed) and remember that after one's death the covenant is unchangeable. It is true that Jesus resurrected, but it is also true that He established the covenant with His death.
So let's review. There can be no change in the covenant after the person (that made the covenant) dies. The Covenant is the Ten Commandments. Jesus died, thus establishing the Ten Commandments. A change can be made in the covenant only as long as the person lives (that is, before his death). Jesus didn't change the Sabbath as long as He lived (before His crucifixion). He died establishing the Ten Commandments (i.e.: covenant). After His death, over a slow process, the Catholic Church changed the Sabbath day from the seventh day of the week to the first day of the week. As you see, this change is invalid, since a covenant cannot be changed after one's death. Simple isn't it?
Daca vrei sa faci vreun comentariu, fa-l asupra ceea ce am scris eu.
Deci un schimb in ziua Sabatului dupa moarte lui Mesia nu ar fi valabil. Asa ca schimbul sabatului ar putea fi facut numai de Isus inaintea mortii Sale. Dar El nu a facut asa ceva.
[/quote]
Nu am citit tot, dar am observat o greseala. Isus nu e mort.
"Dupa moartea lui Mesia" ?? - Acea moarte a fost de scurta durata. A fost. Acum Isus e viu, asta inseamna ca citatul de mai sus nu are rost.
(04-03-2010, 10:02 PM)Necro Wrote: [ -> ]"Dupa moartea lui Mesia" ?? - Acea moarte a fost de scurta durata. A fost. Acum Isus e viu, asta inseamna ca citatul de mai sus nu are rost.
Si? A murit. Negi asta? Ca un testament sa fie valid trebuie sa moara cel ca la facut, nu sa ramana mort.
Hristos a murit.
Deci ce am spus eu are sens.
(04-03-2010, 10:30 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]Si? A murit. Negi asta? Ca un testament sa fie valid trebuie sa moara cel ca la facut, nu sa ramana mort.
Hristos a murit.
Deci ce am spus eu are sens.
"Acea moarte a fost de scurta durata." - Din asta iti puteai da seama ca nu neg moartea Sa.
Si ... iarasi te contrazici. Ai spus ca Isus a venit sa implineasca profetiile (ceea ce e adevarat), iar apoi ai spus chestia cu testamentul. Ce "testament"?
(04-03-2010, 10:56 PM)Necro Wrote: [ -> ] (04-03-2010, 10:30 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]Si? A murit. Negi asta? Ca un testament sa fie valid trebuie sa moara cel ca la facut, nu sa ramana mort.
Hristos a murit.
Deci ce am spus eu are sens.
"Acea moarte a fost de scurta durata." - Din asta iti puteai da seama ca nu neg moartea Sa.
Si ... iarasi te contrazici. Ai spus ca Isus a venit sa implineasca profetiile (ceea ce e adevarat), iar apoi ai spus chestia cu testamentul. Ce "testament"?
testament = covenant
El a murit, prin urmare intarind testamentul si nu poate fi schimbat.
Dar Biblia nu spune ca El trebuie sa stea mort, ci numai sa moara.
Necro, crezi ca noi trebuie sa tinem legile de dieta din Scripturi (Leviticul 11)?
asa. ca sa ma bag si eu printre voi, chiar daca sunteti prea aprinsi si va sustineti cu tarie punctul de vedere [apreciez asta]
iisus a murit pentru pacatele noastre, nu?
(04-03-2010, 11:12 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]testament = covenant
covenant = intelegere, acord, clauza.
(04-03-2010, 11:12 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]El a murit, prin urmare intarind testamentul si nu poate fi schimbat.
A dat Isus vreo lege cu privirea la Sabat?
(04-03-2010, 11:12 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]Dar Biblia nu spune ca El trebuie sa stea mort, ci numai sa moara.
Serios? Arata-mi versetele unde scrie asta. =))
(04-03-2010, 11:12 PM)Cristian Wrote: [ -> ]Necro, crezi ca noi trebuie sa tinem legile de dieta din Scripturi (Leviticul 11)?
Si cu ce te-ar ajuta raspunsul meu?
(04-03-2010, 11:39 PM)ufy Wrote: [ -> ]asa. ca sa ma bag si eu printre voi, chiar daca sunteti prea aprinsi si va sustineti cu tarie punctul de vedere [apreciez asta] iisus a murit pentru pacatele noastre, nu?
Da.